ITV's cycling and football reporter on Bradley Wiggins, Cornish hippy drumming and the world's biggest cassoulet
[After a brief period of mutual backslappery in which Ned and Small Talk profess a glowing admiration of each other's podcasts, Ned's being the Real Peloton] So Ned you've got a book to plug ...
A booklet, it's an ebook. Someone has just asked me if an ebook is a book you buy in Yorkshire. Are you a Yorkshireman Small Talk?
Aye, I am that Ned, lad.
You weren't really the person to make that joke to then. Anyway, it's a digital thing. The first thing to say about it is that it's ridiculously cheap, because it doesn't exist. And secondly it's not as long as a book, it's about a quarter of the size, so it'll get you through a train journey.
And third what's it about?
It basically picks up where my yellow jumper book left off in that it's essentially about working on and experiencing the 2011 Tour de France, which was ? I'm always slightly hesitant to say 'one of the greatest Tours' because I come away from every summer thinking that was one of the greatest tours. But there's a strong argument to say that the 2011 Tour kind of had it all ? it was extraordinary on so many different levels. Although the ebook has the word Cav in the title it's not really about Mark Cavendish, although he's in it.
Small Talk felt one of the great things about last year's Tour was that those who won weren't really the story.
Absolutely! Cadel Evans, who won it, in any other year his story would've been captivating, would've been the enduring image we have taken away from it. But that's not the case. In fact sometimes you have to stop and scratch your head and think: 'Who actually won? Oh yeah it was Evans wasn't it?' Because he's not the first image that comes to mind. You might think of Cavendish in the green jersey roaring up the Champs-Elys�es if you're particularly patriotic, or you might think of Bradley Wiggins bombing out with a broken collarbone in the first week. Or you might think of Thomas Voeckler spending 10 days in the yellow jersey, repeating his superman heroics. Or you might think of Johnny Hoogerland ripping his arse to pieces on barbed wire. Or Thor Hushovd winning two stages in the world champions jersey. Or Geraint Thomas in the white jersey. Or Edvald Boasson Hagen winning two stages for Sky. Or Philippe Gilbert. And even before you think of Evans you might think how bad Andy Schleck was, except for that one stage where he was good. But you won't think of Evans, which is a shame for him.
Who's your money on this year then?
The totally implausible situation has become plausible, something worth considering ? I see no reason why you can't throw Bradley Wiggins very seriously into the mix. I'm not sure I'd make him favourite, because so much in the Tour de France is about experience, but with the absence of Contador, who I think would've won it, I see no reason why Wiggins can't consider himself on level terms with those who you think might win it. Wiggins is a very similar rider to Cadel Evans, and the last time they rode head-to-head at a big race, Wiggins got the better of him in last years Dauphin�.
Certainly he should make the podium, no?
I think if he doesn't he'll be deeply, deeply disappointed. Because it's this year or never really, with the absence of Contador, with the way the profile looks with the two individual time trials ? there's over 90km of time trialling. Whatever time he loses to Andy Schleck in the mountains, if he can keep that to three or four minutes, he can make that back at the drop of a hat. Schleck is almost nullified as a prospect because of the profile of the race.
Anyone else?
Let's not forget the other British rider who might just win it ? Chris Froome. If he can pick up where he left off at last years Vuelta ? If you take that race and transpose it straight to July and the Tour de France you'd have to say Chris Froome would win it, not Bradley Wiggins. Not only can he time trial with the same proficiency, he attack on the climbs in a way that Wiggins can't. Now whether he can do that in France remains to be seen.
Speaking of Contador and the verdict, is that the sort of thing that makes you go: "Yes! There's another cheat caught and out the sport" or "Bugger, that's cycling dragged through the mud again"?
Nothing makes me feel good about it, nothing. They've made the right call but they've made heavy weather of making the decision. It should've been dealt with much quicker. It's all shades of grey ? its very difficult to be black and white about it. Of all the doping cases I've ever had to consider or have an opinion on, Contador's is one of the hardest. Because his defence was plausible, very difficult to prove, and the substance itself was so minuscule as to be almost negligible, which is the argument he tried to put forward. The only fact that was provable in all the toing and froing was that clenbuterol was in his system, and ultimately the system had to rely on that one unalterable fact. He had it in him. [Seems to get the idea that Small Talk has asked whether Contador is truly guilty or not.] Who knows? I don't know. I don't think we'll ever know. There's probably only one or two people on this planet who know whether Alberto Contador ate a steak or took a blood transfusion. [Again seems to have imagined Small Talk pressing him on the issue.] I don't know. I wasn't there. That's one of the eternal frustrations of these stories. [Once more, just to be sure] I don't know.
You're the man who has his microphone up in cyclists' grills after races ? do you ever get any inklings in those situations, where you suspect a rider might have had 'extra help'?
Absolutely. A really good example of that was in, I think, 2008. A German rider called Stefan Schumacher won the time trial in the opening week. No one thought he would win it, it came out of the blue, and the win propelled him into the yellow jersey. I stood waiting to interview him, talking to some German journalists who were very, very downbeat about him winning. And I thought why is this not a cause for national celebration? They told me they had good reason to suspect that he was doping. And they told me why. And I considered very carefully and made a judgment over the course of about a minute whether or not I would tackle him on these various issues. I decided that I would, because they stacked up to me and they sounded plausible. So instead of congratulating him when he came to my microphone, I just went straight in and asked him to explain why he had tested positive for amphetamines in a previous test. That shocked him, I think. He was very defensive, quite aggressive and pretty implausible in the way he dealt with it. When it was broadcast ITV got floods of complaints from viewers saying I had been disrespectful to a winning rider, that I gone in too hard and disrespected the race. Of course, you just have to take that ? you don't really have a right to reply. And it wasn't until a couple of weeks after that Tour that they released news of his positive drugs test from that very stage, on that very day. He then served a two-year ban. So my instincts were right on that day, although it was a unnerving thing to do, because no one wants to do that. I remember my microphone hand shaking. To challenge someone in that way at the pinnacle of their career was quite alarming actually. One of the reasons I love covering the Tour is that as a journalist you're right at the heart of the action, in a way that you're not really in football, where you're marginalised and kept at arm's length.
So would you say the post-race cycling interview is tougher than the post-match tunnel interview?
I wouldn't say tougher. Because, well I'm sure you've interviewed Alex Ferguson often enough ...
[Small Talk tries to chuckle knowingly, possibly giving the suggestion that yes of course Small Talk and Sir Alex are well acquainted, despite the fact that Small Talk has never interviewed Alex Ferguson. Small Talk would like to point out therefore that he did not lie. He just chuckled knowingly]
... that has a very particular toughness. It's just a more raw, open environment where you can get stuck in more. It's a more real reaction that you get. The teams and the riders are less managed and they expect it as well. They're all riders who have grown up in that context ? they understand that they'll have a microphone under their nose seconds after they cross the line. It's just part of the gig and by and large they get it and enjoy it.
Going back to the football, have you ever irritated Roy Keane?
Eem, I don't think so. Well, I might have done on the odd occasion.
But you've lived to tell the tale. Is he not the scariest man on TV?
[Smartly swerving the question] He's really growing into it on ITV, isn't he? I think we booked him as a one-off for the Champions League final. Quite famously he didn't do TV. He was one of those players who said: 'I'm not going to be hanging around in the studio pontificating.' And on the day he was relatively bland. But he feels really part of the team now, and he's really starting to enjoy it. And as he relaxes more I think you're going to see more and more of the real Keano coming out.
If there's anyone you could nab punditwise who would you have?
Well everyone's raving about Gary Neville ...
Small Talk doesn't really get that ...
I'm not entirely sold on him. [Considers the options] Cor blimey, it's not a rich tapestry is it? Do you know what, I'd go and poach someone from Germany. Because all the A-list German internationals, they all work in TV and they all compete for being the most outrageous. Lothar Mattha�s, Stefan Effenberg, the lot of them - they're all competing and they've all got egos, so I'd go and nick myself a German on a Bosman.
Would you rather be the greatest rock star of all time or the greatest cyclist of all time?
It would have to be the cyclist. Because ... Why? ... Because ... [long ruminative pause] I've got a real problem with beige food and I suspect that your life would be lived out in the haze of fried chicken buckets. I've actually just seen an advert for a new McDonald's product which I imagine if you're a rock star is all that you would eat ? an all-in-one breakfast wrap, with a hash brown in it. If you were a rock star I imagine you'd live off them.
What's your karaoke song of choice?
Anything by Jacques Brel.
Blimey. Very high brow. Any number in particular number? Ne Me Quitte Pas.
That'd be a sight to see. An evening of beered-up yawpers cranking out Hit Me Baby One More Time, then you rock up with theatrical French meanderings? You're running the risk their of the most pretentious five minutes of karaoke ever.
[Sounding ever so slightly offended by Small Talk's description of Jacques Brel] I'll take the risk.
What's the worst party you've ever been to?
The only time I tried to throw a party myself, it was a couple of years ago and all I did was fret about how many people would turn up and about a quarter of the people who I wanted to turn up actually turned up and had a miserable time.
Do aliens exist?
Yeah, I think they do. And I think Team Sky have signed up a few of them. Big story about to break.
Who would win a fight between a lion and a tiger?
It would be the tiger, because he'd be a bit sneaky about it. Pulling hair and all sorts. Gouging.
Here's one we've nabbed from somewhere. Would you rather be chased by a horse-sized duck or 20 duck-sized horses?
Erm ... I'll be chased by the ducks.
Hang on a minute ...
The ducks are horse-sized right?
Well there's one giant duck. And several small horses.
Yeah, I'll be chased by the big duck. [With confidence] But I'll beat him, stick him in a pot, add a few butter beans, some Toulouse sausage and have the world's biggest cassoulet.
Good angle. The last book you read?
Jon Ronson's Psychopath Test. Absolutely brilliant. I want to be able to write like Jon Ronson writes.
What was the last CD you bought?
Christ, CD! [Small Talk feels suitably chastened for his technological faux pas] I was given a CD of some African drumming by a Cornish hippy a few years ago on a campsite, which is still in my car. And every time I switch on the ignition it starts and I have to switch it off.
Last of all, you cycle a fair bit yourself ... Yeah, I mess about.
Now have you ever worn or possessed or do you ever intend to wear or possess at any point in the future, an item of Lycra?
Oh, yeah yeah. I've got wardrobes full of Lycra. If I could get away with it I'd wear nothing but Lycra.
Well, that would certainly add a new dimension to ITV's cycling and football coverage. An enduring image to finish on. Thanks for your time, Ned, with which you've been most generous.
Cheers Small Talk.
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/feb/24/small-talk-ned-boulting
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